In this section, JH shares a bit of his personal testimony of how he got burned out and discouraged with short-term teenage dating relationships. I have to agree with him that in some of the stories he shares here, the people were acting rather immature (like the girl who dumped her boyfriend and kissed JH literally the next minute). And I can understand how JH would feel fed up with all that.
However, this section is where one of the biggest flaws with his argument arises. JH shares these few examples of his own negative experiences with "dating," and goes on to talk about all the problems with "dating." However, he never sits down and says exactly what dating is. So without being given a clear definition, we're left to believe that these immature junior-high relationships are the only kind of "dating" that there is.
Check out this other blog post on "I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness?" http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/what-is-%e2%80%9cdating%e2%80%9d-and-what-did-harris-supposedly-%e2%80%9ckiss-goodbye%e2%80%9d/
This post describes various types of dating and how "it is quite possible for a couple to be involved in any of the above scenarios and do it in the purity that God commands us to." I'm sorry that JH had only negative experiences in his dating life. But it's not fair of him to assume that everyone's experiences are going to be like his. And his vague definition of "dating" (short-term, physical-based, immature teenage relationships) is NOT a complete or accurate definition of the term!
You know what I think is really going on here? JH says "I felt discouraged, confused, and desperate for an alternative to the cycle of short-term relationships in which I found myself. 'God,' I cried, 'I want your best for my life! Give me something better than this!' " (21). I think JH was experiencing a syndrome I have noticed a LOT in the conservative Christian community. They look around at our culture (or their ill-conceived ideas of it), see the whole world as going down the tubes, and desperately wish to distinguish themselves from "all that." Therefore, you get these over-the-top situations like familes who, instead of simply just skipping the R-rated sex comedies, buying TVGuardian, or fast-forwarding the "bad parts," go overboard with their media pickiness and can't even enjoy a totally fun and entertaining movie like Indiana Jones because they feel "disturbed" by the idea of Indy having multiple girlfriends. Or parents who don't want their daughters to look immodest or provocative in their personal appearance, and so forbid them from wearing makeup or dying or straightening their hair, and dress them up in unflattering, ill-fitting outfits that were out of style 80 years ago. (See my post, "Butterflies," for more about this.)
Now, to some people, this approach to life may seem right and good. But I've seen this "throw out the good with the bad" method create a lot of problems for people, especially in the area of dating. Allow me to illustrate with a personal tale: the tale of the closest I ever came to having a "date."
About 3 years ago, some people I know started a Bible club thing on Sunday afternoons for kids in a largely Hispanic, lower-income trailer park. I am a Spanish major and was really interested in using the language, and had done things with these people in the past, so a friend and I eagerly jumped on the bandwagon and began helping with the club. Now, one of the people who helped start the club was actually someone that I had not met before, and was this guy about a year younger than me whom we shall refer to as Adam (that's not his real name, but deal with it.) Anyways, Adam turned out to be this super-nice Christian guy who had a lot of similar interests as I did--he had been going to Guatemala every summer for several years (I think his uncle was a missionary there or something) and doing missionary stuff down there, he spoke Spanish fluently, was great with kids, etc. Now, (and this is not one of those romantic denial things, but the truth) despite the mutual interests and all, I geniunely did not feel any sort of romantic interest in Adam. Maybe it was because he dressed like solely in camo, and there ain't a thing wrong with camo, but I've always favored the more jeans/hoodie/Star Wars T-shirt type myself. And yay for being shallow. But. Anyway. I would have loved to know Adam better as a friend, because of the Spanish and stuff, and because he was just an all-around nice person, easy to talk to, etc.
Well. Like I said, he helped start the club, but wasn't able to attend consistently because he lived pretty far away from town and was involved with a lot of other church stuff. But he would still show up from time to time and help out, and we were friends on Facebook. One day we happened to both be on FB and were talking via FB chat. He asked if I had any exciting plans for the summer, and I said that I was going to Guatemala on a short-term missions trip, because I was at the time (this was last summer). Well like I said he had been to Guatemala a ton so we were talking about it and stuff, and then FB chat decided to be...well...FB chat, and malfunction. So we switched to FB email to finish the conversation. Via email we talked a bit more about the trip and then he closed by saying, "If you ever want to grab a coffee and talk more about Guatemala, that would be fun" or something to that effect.
OK, freak mode! What was I going to do with that? Well, obviously, I couldn't say "yes," or my parents would absolutely freak out and think this was a "date," and want to meet him and have him talk to my dad, etc. (Actually they would probably have said a flat-out NO, or suggested something stupid like inviting him over for family dinner or something.) But on the other hand, I couldn't say "no," because I would have to explain WHY I said no, and I couldn't do that without introducing into the conversation the idea that said coffee-getting was a "date." Now like I said I did not like this guy in the "like-like" sense, and I honestly do not think he made the offer with any sort of romantic or relationship intent in mind. So not only would it have been very presumptious of me and unfair to him to introduce this "date" element that he did not bring up, it would also have been really, really awkward. I mean, imagine it. "Hey, Adam, my dad wants to meet and interrogate you, and how are your finances right now? And while you're at it, I like crimson and rose for wedding colors." When all he had done was offer to grab a coffee together!
(And just to clarify. I live at home with my parents, and they are very aware of everywhere. I. Go. So if I had gone away to college or lived with a roommate or something, I'm sure I could have gone for coffee without any problems. But, that is not possible in my current situation.)
So, what did I do? I'm ashamed to admit that I did nothing. I couldn't see any way out of the situation without causing a major problem, so I just never replied to his email. I was hoping that since Chat had been malfunctioning so much a few minutes ago, he would assume that the email had malfunctioned and I had just never gotten his email. And nothing ever happened, so maybe he did assume that, and then forgot about the offer. Do I think this was a good choice? No. But it seemed the only option possible at the time.
I still feel sad about this. If we had been able to meet for coffee, it would have been a great opportunity to learn more about the culture of the country I was going to, since he knew so much about it. We could even have practiced speaking in Spanish. And it might have been the beginning of a very nice friendship. And who knows, if we had been able to spend more time together as friends, not to flatter myself but maybe we would have discovered that we DID like each other, and I might be a much happier person than I am now. (Of course, I probably wouldn't be writing on this blog. But. You know.) And if my parents had been less of the "omg they're meeting for coffee to have an imformative chat about a mutual interest, therefore it's a DATE, and that's BAD, because they are committing themselves emotionally and she's leading him on, and they're probably going to start having sex in the middle of Starbucks" mentality, all of that would have been possible.
But, no, alas.
This is why I think one's definition of "dating" is crucial. Especially if they are going to "kiss it goodbye." We don't have to define "dating" the way JH does--immature, young teenagers coupling up sexually, based on good looks & popularity, with no sense of responsibility or thoughts for the future. We were 2 college-aged adults who had a lot of things in common and could have had a perfectly innocent coffee & conversation. That wasn't a date, or a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. And even if it had been a "date," I don't think there would have been anything bad about it.
(As a side note, what is WITH Josh Harris's apparent advice to 100% break off a relationship the minute troubles arise or sin issues crop up? This is something I saw popping up again and again in IKDG. Does he think that with Mr. or Miss Right, you would never experience any temptations or difficulties?)
-Violet
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4 comments:
Violet
Another good post.
Thanks for sharing your story though it was kind of sad to read. Unfortunately this type of "being afraid of each other" is what "kissing dating goodbye" sadly promotes. Sadly, like with your case, it prevents single men and women from having healthy interactions like what would have happened had you been allowed to "date" by having coffee with your friend.
As I shared on the blog entry you reference Josh Harris said on one of tapes (long after the book was published) that he could have said I kissed “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye but that would be too long of a title for a book. Your meeting this young man who you had no romantic interest in certainly would not have violated the longer Harris wordage I just quoted.
Would it not have beneficial for you two to even had some type of pure friendship? Wouldn't it have helped you both mature in how you relate to those of the opposite sex? Harris seems to be against the romantic side before one is ready. Sure you could have interacted with this young man and avoided the romantic side.
In some groups I have seem them promote doing all things in groups (3 or more) and no one on one (with the opposite sex). I am sure if you did that your parents would have had no problem. It does seem silly to have to always follow that rule especially when it makes setting something like that up all the harder.
As I share in another one of my blog entries Harris had to give a message at his church to say it was OK for singles of the opposite sex to meet for coffee. In the same message he acknowledged there was a "standoffishness" between singles. Sadly he doesn't even mention these problems on his blog. It is good he at least made some attempt to correct things at his own church.
One thing that I don't get with those who promote "kissing dating goodbye" is that do they not want young single men and women to learn how to properly relate to those of the opposite sex until the person is ready for marriage? Are they wanting no interaction between those of the opposite sex until the both are ready for marriage? Does that really make sense.
Do you want a single man that is say 25 and now in a position to marry (financially etc) to not have such limited experience interacting with single women? Is that really the best way? Maybe this is why there are a number of men ready for marriage that don't get married due not having the social skills needed to approach and get to know a woman. I am sure this also leads to some single women not being approachable.
One thought I have on this is that Harris seemed to naturally have the social skills needed to interact with single women. It came easy to him. Maybe this is why he doesn't get all the problems I Kissed Dating Goodbye has caused?
"Would it not have beneficial for you two to even had some type of pure friendship? Wouldn't it have helped you both mature in how you relate to those of the opposite sex?"
Totally, Steve. Totally. I do so wish I had better social skills around the opposite sex. I mean, even if a guy did show up and jump through all the courtship hoops (of course, no way I'm marrying that type of guy) when we got to the actual moment of having a conversation I would probably kind of struggle with it. Which I hate about myself.
And yeah, my parents like the group thing. Which of course is just awkward and annoying. If you are really in a relationship, who wants to have somebody else around all the time? Perhaps worse, who wants to be that 3rd wheel when it's totally obvious the other 2 like each other? And why do 2 people have to be constantly monitored when they are geniunely just friends?
Your last paragraph is a very interesting thought! I remember reading a lot of comments on the Sgmsurvivors blog describing how there is a certain subset of people for whom courtship actually does work. For instance, girls who are attractive enough (and/or from advantageous enough families) that guys would consider them as a marriage partner before really getting to know them always get snapped up in courtship situations. Joshua Harris, a "best-selling" author at 21, would certainly fit in that category. Who wouldn't want to be courted by him? (I mean, I wouldn't. But you know what I mean.) I believe someone mentioned on here that he actually worked at a church with the girl he ended up marrying, and thus it was easy for them to meet and spend time, etc. And of course we've already demonstrated that JH tends to see the entire world's experiences as being more or less synonymous with his own. Perhaps he assumes that courtship will be the successful solution for everyone that it was for him.
"Your last paragraph is a very interesting thought! I remember reading a lot of comments on the Sgmsurvivors blog describing how there is a certain subset of people for whom courtship actually does work."
Well for some people that are more group oriented etc. These are the people that have lots of friends and do a lot of things in groups with people. I am sure that the "alternative" to dating can work well.
These people are like what I said before that already pretty much naturally have good social skills with those of the opposite sex. It could also be argued that being so group oriented helps develop those skills. There are others that need other ways to develop their social skills.
I didn't realize that you were involved in reading the SGM blogs. That was interesting how Kris indicated at one time that something along the lines of young men might only be willing to put with all the hoops they have to go through with courtship for the real pretty girls or those whose families that have a higher social position. I am sure there is some truth to it.
One other thing that I have read about is that in some groups there is some "behind the scenes" going together that couples do. That is they may appear to their parents as following the courtship system while they surreptitiously had gotten to know the person before that. Thus they appeared to follow the courtship system when it more of a formality and a way to appease their parents and church's expectations.
You should read Natureshock. Even in groups kids found out how to trick their parents. I think that's what people never take into account. You can't know what's going on all the time. You can't know what's in someone's mind.
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